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Muslim Invasion of America 2017 RED DAWN ALERT! CIVIL WAR 2017

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 Torn    180
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, apache54 said:

first of all. I am NOT going to debate religion with you, it is ALL subjective to YOUR views, what I am saying is there are VERY specific writings that leave NO room for misinterpretation. Yes there are a couple of other religions that say a few disturbing things, BUT NOTHING like what the Quran says. so with this said just because you have been brainwashed to believe it, makes NO difference to me, WHAT does and DID make a difference to me is when you want to kill me because of my interpretation of those religions!! NOW IS THAT PLAIN and CLEAR?? THAT is ONE of MANY reasons I don't like it! ie. when I lived in those countries most of the poor people have NOT studied the Quran, they went to a leader and HE taught them, so most do NOT even know what it says. enough i am done with this subject.

Btw I'm not a religious person of any kind just to let it be known, any blind adherence to authority is indeed dangerous imo. I'm just trying to establish if there is infact any truth that the Quran teaches to kill or rape those purely because they don't wish to follow the Quran.

Approaching from a neutral point of view there have been no verses I've found which can be considered to follow that idea. Sure there are violent verses regarding the 'unbelievers' which taken without reading the words that come before and after can easily be interpreted as being hateful towards non muslims, but the same applies elsewhere, you can selectively quote anyone or anything to demonize if that happens to be the intention.

But ok, even if we want to say that some of the verses do indeed describe violent actions against unbelievers, there still hasn't been any verse to be found in this thread which states that unbelievers must be killed/raped because of their refusal to follow the quran, only the opposite. Therefore so far we can say that in the Quran it's violent but not intolerant of non-muslims.

Edited by Torn

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 apache54    3,116
22 minutes ago, Torn said:

Btw I'm not a religious person of any kind just to let it be known, any blind adherence to authority is indeed dangerous imo. I'm just trying to establish if there is infact any truth that the Quran teaches to kill or rape those purely because they don't wish to follow the Quran.

Approaching from a neutral point of view there have been no verses I've found which can be considered to follow that idea. Sure there are violent verses regarding the 'unbelievers' which taken without reading the words that come before and after can easily be interpreted as being hateful towards non muslims, but the same applies elsewhere, you can selectively quote anyone or anything to demonize if that happens to be the intention.

But ok, even if we want to say that some of the verses do indeed describe violent actions against unbelievers, there still hasn't been any verse to be found in this thread which states that unbelievers must be killed/raped because of their refusal to follow the quran, only the opposite. Therefore so far we can say that in the Quran it's violent but not intolerant of non-muslims.

let me clarify, the Quran does not tell you to do those things, it does state that it is OK, to do those things to infidels, and there is allot more than that, and it is longer than i wish to type in this format. what it DOES say is that if you cannot be converted from a infidel to a Muslim then it IS there duty to kill you!! there are other definitions from the Muslim leaders which are suppose to clarify what is OK to do, such as raping a infidel, and so on and so on. you could spend hours discussing those items. Bottom line LIKE I SAID, it is a very nasty cult type religion in my view.

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Kral   
Kral
59 minutes ago, apache54 said:

let me clarify, the Quran does not tell you to do those things, it does state that it is OK, to do those things to infidels, and there is allot more than that, and it is longer than i wish to type in this format. what it DOES say is that if you cannot be converted from a infidel to a Muslim then it IS there duty to kill you!! there are other definitions from the Muslim leaders which are suppose to clarify what is OK to do, such as raping a infidel, and so on and so on. you could spend hours discussing those items. Bottom line LIKE I SAID, it is a very nasty cult type religion in my view.

no it doesn't.

your view is very ignorant and uneducated.

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 Jostler    2,213
10 minutes ago, Kral said:

no it doesn't.

your view is very ignorant and uneducated.

and your tactics of injecting  incendiary comments with no evidence, no attempt to provide justification for anything you pretend to believe are well known and understood here.  You  like to provoke controversy with no information that can be contested and then sit back and watch others attack each  other over the false train you laid out.

You won't last long.  Keep it up :)

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 Jostler    2,213
Posted (edited)

Guys keep an  eye on this one ^  :)  understand why he is here, watch his tactics closely.   He's not here for any reason but to create strife in an effort to destroy this community.  That's his job.

Scroll back through all of his comments.  Study them :)

 

Edited by Jostler
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 Torn    180
Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, apache54 said:

let me clarify, the Quran does not tell you to do those things, it does state that it is OK, to do those things to infidels, and there is allot more than that, and it is longer than i wish to type in this format. what it DOES say is that if you cannot be converted from a infidel to a Muslim then it IS there duty to kill you!! there are other definitions from the Muslim leaders which are suppose to clarify what is OK to do, such as raping a infidel, and so on and so on. you could spend hours discussing those items. Bottom line LIKE I SAID, it is a very nasty cult type religion in my view.

And that's well within your right to believe Islam is a very nasty cult and who would I be to tell you otherwise? But that's not what I'm disputing with respect.

I realize there are plenty of verses that can be interpreted in either direction but really what I was hoping to gain from this thread is for someone to be able to provide, that clear, unequivocal, unambiguous, 'smoking gun' verse, showing the non-muslims absolutely must be exterminated if they don't wish to be a follower of the Quran. So far no one has been able to do it and to top it off I found a passage in the Quran which clearly states that religion is not compulsory.

Yes there are violent descriptions of battles between the atheists, pagans and the muslims and how the muslims are being instructed to fight against them when the time of war arrives, but from what I know of (so far) it doesn't say they are fighting them because the unbelievers are refusing the bow down to their demands to follow the Quran. If anyone could find the verse/s that DOES show that then I'd be very grateful. 

 

 

Edited by Torn

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 apache54    3,116
3 hours ago, Kral said:

no it doesn't.

your view is very ignorant and uneducated.

well, my friend, I have probably more degrees than YOU, and I will just have to finish stating that it is YOU that either were taught what you THINK the Quran says or your just another supporter of a sick ideology. I don't really care, as long as you don't try to kill me for being a infidel!!  and just for the record that HAS been tried!! LOL

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Posted (edited)
16 hours ago, Torn said:

We could debate all day about what the interpretations of certain questionable verses are . Ok so you believe Islam and Muslims are the spawn of satan I get it, that's fair enough, but that wasn't my question to you .The point is you made a specific claim that the Quran demands anyone who isn't a follower be raped or murdered and you still have yet to show a verse that clearly demonstrates that when I've actually shown one that says the opposite.

 

Jizyah was a tax imposed on non muslims in Islamic countries over a thousand years ago which in return enabled them to certain protections under law. There is no such tax in place today in any Islamic country. Maybe you're thinking of ISIS militants who extort, rape and behead non muslims and like to call that 'jizyah'?

 

Quran (9:29) - "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth(the atheists, agnostics, pagans of the time), (even if they are) of the People of the Book(the Jews and Christians of the time), until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."

The verse you put says it itself, maybe youre just reading it wrong. "Even if they are people of the book (the Jews and Christians of the time)". I don't forbid that which Allah and his messenger forbid, neither would anyone logical person or especially anyone following a different teaching of God so we are in that category. I don't hate on Muslims by the way, pointing out something that's wrong doesn't mean I hate that thing, I want nothing more then them to find the truth in Jesus Christ. Or at the very least keep their radical and hateful teachings to themselves.

 

Jizyah is happening today.

They want you to pay in person too, and they will for sure kill anyone they feel like if they feel like it that day because like the verse that you gave it says fight non-believers. It happens, its called Sharia law and the Caliphate where worldwide Islam is their goal and you either convert, die, or pay tax. It's exactly what the verses say.

Edited by This Sling & Stone

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 Redlistvet    513

So what is daesh trying to currently spread in the M.E.??? It sure aint peace and love.

The problem with your demand is that you would have to be physically present in a mosque as an iman preaches, with a recording device, to get this info.

The koran might not say it out right but its the leaders and religious figureheads that push the narrative.  

 

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 Redlistvet    513
2 hours ago, Torn said:

And that's well within your right to believe Islam is a very nasty cult and who would I be to tell you otherwise? But that's not what I'm disputing with respect.

I realize there are plenty of verses that can be interpreted in either direction but really what I was hoping to gain from this thread is for someone to be able to provide, that clear, unequivocal, unambiguous, 'smoking gun' verse, showing the non-muslims absolutely must be exterminated if they don't wish to be a follower of the Quran. So far no one has been able to do it and to top it off I found a passage in the Quran which clearly states that religion is not compulsory.

Yes there are violent descriptions of battles between the atheists, pagans and the muslims and how the muslims are being instructed to fight against them when the time of war arrives, but from what I know of (so far) it doesn't say they are fighting them because the unbelievers are refusing the bow down to their demands to follow the Quran. If anyone could find the verse/s that DOES show that then I'd be very grateful. 

 

 

Were in the bible did it call for the spanish inquisition?

Thats what your asking for.

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 apache54    3,116
2 hours ago, Torn said:

And that's well within your right to believe Islam is a very nasty cult and who would I be to tell you otherwise? But that's not what I'm disputing with respect.

I realize there are plenty of verses that can be interpreted in either direction but really what I was hoping to gain from this thread is for someone to be able to provide, that clear, unequivocal, unambiguous, 'smoking gun' verse, showing the non-muslims absolutely must be exterminated if they don't wish to be a follower of the Quran. So far no one has been able to do it and to top it off I found a passage in the Quran which clearly states that religion is not compulsory.

Yes there are violent descriptions of battles between the atheists, pagans and the muslims and how the muslims are being instructed to fight against them when the time of war arrives, but from what I know of (so far) it doesn't say they are fighting them because the unbelievers are refusing the bow down to their demands to follow the Quran. If anyone could find the verse/s that DOES show that then I'd be very grateful. 

 

 

try reading this book, it might help you on your quest for the true teachings of Islam.

Qur'an Dilemma : Former Muslims Analyze Islam's Holiest Book

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 Torn    180

@This Sling & Stone

Thanks for your reply.

Ok, so the verse is effectively condensed into this: Those who are guests in the Islamic lands, The Atheists, Pagans and even the Christians and Jews must pay their taxes and you mustn't sit back if they refuse to pay, you must fight them for it.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jizya#Jizya_in_the_classical_era

As I previously mentioned/alluded to, Jizyah is a tax that is not used by Islamic nations in modern times. In the early Islamic era when the verse was written it was not a violent means of extortion. For example it used to be totally exempt by those that who the poor, women, children, the sick, disabled and those who offered valuable services to the state were exempt from paying any sort of Jizyah but still continued to receive protection. But those who were very well off, fit and healthy were expected to make a contribution in exchange for the equal protections they would be granted living in the Islamic land. If they chose not to then they were punished by going to prison - "According to Abu Yusuf, jurist of the fifth Abbasid Caliph Harun al-Rashid, those who didn't pay jizya should be imprisoned and not be let out of custody until payment, however, the collectors of the jizya were instructed to show leniency, and avoid corporal punishment in case of non-payment.[140]"

 

The jizya is no longer imposed by Muslim states.[37][168] Nevertheless, there have been reports of non-Muslims in areas controlled by the Pakistani Taliban and ISIS being forced to pay the jizya.[36][40] - Ok so ISIS and the likes force people to pay 'Jizyah' apparantley, it still doesn't change the fact that they don't implement it in the way it was originally carried out so it's highly doubtful if you can even call it Jizyah when it doesn't match the original definition. It's less a tax and more an extortion now. The punishment never used to be to murder those who refused to pay, leniency was taken on non muslims who were feeble and poor. Can you imagine ISIS doing either of those things?

 

Having said all that I could accommodate your belief and for the sake of the argument say that murder was always the punishment for anyone who refused to pay their Jizyah tax but that still doesn't show me that the Quran demands that all non followers be raped/murdered. At most all it would show is those who refused to pay their tax in Islamic lands would be dealt with in a barbaric way. It makes no mention that those who refused to pay their tax should be forced to receit the Quran and become a devout follower of Allah or face death.

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