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Cinnamon

Muslim Invasion of America 2017 RED DAWN ALERT! CIVIL WAR 2017

117 posts in this topic

13 minutes ago, Torn said:

@Jostler

Thanks.

I can see where you're coming from. As a devout follower of the Bible, Jesus, God as man, it simply isn't possible for you reconcile and pay serious attention to the words of someone who is claiming to be a mere 'messenger' of God, no matter what it is the moral kind of 'message' is being passed on because a 'messenger' has zero credibility by default because they aren't God in human form.

That's your position which I fully respect and I don't intend to debate against someone's deeply held religious beliefs and move them in a different direction.

From my point of view, however, as someone who doesn't have a stake in either religion, but can look to what the life teachings are of both and acknowledge their usefulness, if the Quran itself has moral teachings similar to moral teachings of the Bible and furthermore the Quran at no point is clear and coherent in its claims to destroy or coerce those because they don't want to follow the Quran and infact there is the opposite - unambiguous mentions of Allah's hatred of transgressors, aggressors along with the direct instruction there is to be no compulsion in religion - I just can't find it in myself to reasonably condemn the book for being 'coercive' from what I've read so far (the book alone nothing else). 

IMHO I can't see how anyone could claim that this viewpoint could be unreasonable. I've been honest and thorough in my explanation of all the verses presented in this thread, and while many may have disagreed with me with their own interpretation, no one can fairly say I have lied, deceived or shown favoritism and if I have then I ask them to please pin point exactly where in my interpretation I've been dishonest. 

I respect those who want to have their own interpretation of the Quran but from what I've said no one, contrary to the claim made on pg 1, so far can objectively say the Quran gives the clear instruction to eliminate the non-followers of the Quran, instead the claim can only be made by choosing to interpret selected verses ,where there happens to be violence, in a certain way. 

Again, you didn't join this thread for the discussion of the Quran and I'm not here for the discussion of violent radical muslims, so it doesn't really apply, but thought I'd explain anyway. :) 

 

no :) that's not my position.  but true, the conversation is fruitless.

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16 hours ago, EMC2 said:

The only false knowledge is that Islam is a religion of peace. 

There are violent radical muslims who wish to bring severe harm to others and their behaviour is utterly reprehensible and indefensible, but the Quran is not a coercive piece of literature from the evidence presented in this thread. :) 

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12 hours ago, Walk Softly said:

I did some research and it doesn't bode well for your comment.  Understand that female circumcision means cutting out the clitoris. That is mutilation.  I'm pretty sure that would be the equivalent of cutting off the head of the penis, as opposed to removing the foreskin.  

 

https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Qur'an,_Hadith_and_Scholars:Female_Genital_Mutilation

"Note that the rule of hadith dictate that if it is not mentioned specifically or if the pronouns do not point to a certain gender, then the hadith is valid for both sexes. Hence, the following hadiths are applicable for both men and women.

Abu Hurayrah said: I heard the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) say: “The fitrah is five things – or five things are part of the fitrah – circumcision, shaving the pubes, trimming the moustache, cutting the nails and plucking the armpit hairs.”

Bukhari 5891; Muslim 527

A preservation of honor for women[edit]

Abu al- Malih ibn `Usama's father relates that the Prophet said: "Circumcision is a law for men and a preservation of honour for women."

Ahmad Ibn Hanbal 5:75; Abu Dawud, Adab 167." 

understand that there are several forms of female circumcision. the lightest one means cutting off the foreskin of the clitoris. then there are other forms where more stuff is cut off (mutilation). none of these are demanded by any text in either the Quran or in the hadiths. the practice of female circumcision dates back before both Islam and Christianity. you shouldn't do research on wikiislam if you want to learn anything.

 

 

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@This Sling & Stone

Please don't hesitate to let me know if I've given deceitful, false information or false evidence in my counter claim that the Quran is not a coercive piece of literature - that is it does not threaten others with murder/rape for not wanting to follow the Quran. Thanks.

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8 hours ago, Torn said:

@This Sling & Stone

Please don't hesitate to let me know if I've given deceitful, false information or false evidence in my counter claim that the Quran is not a coercive piece of literature - that is it does not threaten others with murder/rape for not wanting to follow the Quran. Thanks.

I don't think you've purposefully done so, I just feel you're failing to see it for what it is. For some reason you don't interpret the Quran like the majority of people. Either the reader is for it and accept it or they're against it for the verses meaning exactly what they say. Good discussing though, hopefully the truth is what reigns.

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1 hour ago, This Sling & Stone said:

I don't think you've purposefully done so, I just feel you're failing to see it for what it is.

But am I failing to? I'm approaching the subject from a neutral point of view, I'm not a muslim or other religious person. Again please do tell me if you disagree and think I've been showing bias on my side, but I feel as though I've been very fair in my analysis of the verses. I don't see how at any point I made the claim about the Quran not being coercive(murdering and raping) to the non followers, without providing a clear argument with the evidence from the Quran to support it.

 

1 hour ago, This Sling & Stone said:

For some reason you don't interpret the Quran like the majority of people. 

I fully respect your view to believe in the Quran however you wish, that goes for anyone else too. The amount of people who wish to interpret the Quran in a certain way, though, is not what I'm here to question from pg 1 of the thread, quite frankly it's irrelevant to the discussion. What matters is the examination of the argument being put forward specifically relating to the Quran, to see what position/s is legit.

 

1 hour ago, This Sling & Stone said:

Either the reader is for it and accept it or they're against it for the verses meaning exactly what they say.

'Exactly what they say' a great deal of the time is purely down to the individual interpretation surely you would agree? You have your own view of the truth of the Quran regarding coercion and what it's trying to tell us, but from my rational and reasoned arguments put forward I can easily see how others would choose interpret it very differently. It's not my intention to tell you what to believe and what not to believe, but are you able to at least acknowledge it's reasonable for someone to approach the Quran with honest intentions, a clear mind, and after reading arrive at the conclusion that there is no clear instruction for compulsion of religion in the Quran? 

 

1 hour ago, This Sling & Stone said:

Good discussing though, hopefully the truth is what reigns.

Discussion is always good! This thread made me curious to seek more knowledge about the Quran than I would otherwise have done.

Edited by Torn

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@Torn

To me you are failing to get across that the Quran doesn't teaching killing, fighting, raping, and so on. You bring up points about why you feel these verses are in a different context but I don't think so. I also don't think many of those reading are viewing in a different context either by their actions that we see around the world and in Muslim dominant countries. To me when the verses say to fight non-believer, kill those who don't believe in Islam and Allahs ways, and that its ok to have sex with girls before puberty (which is rape imo) then Im just not gunna give them the benefit of the doubt. I'll give someone the benefit of the doubt when I'm unsure of why they are doing something, but we can read the verses and thats what they say. When popular Islamic teachers are teaching these things and when Muslim populations are surveyed and they hold true to these Ideals, I have a major problem with that. I fail to see your point cause you give contexts that those who are following Islam are not believing cause those surveyed believe it for what it says and we can see by the actions of radical Islam (which are those following it for exactly what it says). I read the verses, see what they say, see the actions of those around the world and see the stats that they actually do believe these things (like in that one video I posted) then I have no need to look any further. Like you said yes some Im sure read the Quran and understand parts of it teach things they wont do, but that still doesnt mean its ok. I don't hate Muslims and Im not against them. I feel they could easily see it for what it is, a deception of the devil and they could find the truth which is in Jesus Christ, so thats why I focus on it. Your not religious like you said and Im not either, I have a relationship with Jesus Christ and thats completely different in my book. But thats where I stand.

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@This Sling & Stone

I could provide stats that show it isn't every Islamic nation that these abominable terrorist acts against the west originate, only certain ones https://images-cdn.9gag.com/photo/aEYdE6N_700b.jpg . But the stats are irrelevant anyway because that's not the point I'm trying to make at all! 

I did mention before that I am in no way trying to justify the acts of radicals, not in the slightest, and neither do I want to focus on what the dire practical consequences are of certain interpretations by muslims(for I can acknowledge already it happens and it's barbaric and wrong). I only want to solely focus on your claim which was about the message that Muhammad gave as he allegedly received divine knowledge from the Angel Gabriel.

Let's put it another way. Let's say all muslims died off or converted to other religions hundreds of years ago and so the world has been muslim free for the past several hundred years, would you still say that the way I've explained the words of the 'Angel Gabriel' thru Muhammad has been unreasonable, biased or illogical in any way shape or form? Have I unfairly distorted what the message was that Muhammad passed on from his own mouth, according to the Quran? edit: specifically the claim about compulsion of religion

 

Edited by Torn

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@Torn

Im skeptical of those stats, I guess they aren't taking in consideration soldiers that have died in those countries because it definitely isn't 0% if that's the case. Also thats not taking into account where Radical Islamist's have killed people in other countries in terrorist attacks. Another point is that I don't care about only western people involved. The majority of the rapes and murders going on in those countries are against people of those countries and I care about them! I don't want them terrorized by Islam either! Also come on, look at how they treat women, that alone makes it a truly savage teaching. Women don't have a choice in their marriage, they also have no way of prosecuting those who treat them wrong, it's extremely unfair to them in their judicial systems, I watched a documentary on it awhile back, don't think I could find it but Im sure other people have documented it. Women can't even talk in some countries, its not cool. They are slaves, and they actually own slaves in some of those countries. I'm feel its an attack against humanity as a whole and thats why I think it needs to be exposed.

 

Muhammad's supposed vision or encounter with the angel Gabriel is completely false, I would view it on the same level that I would view someone saying it on YouTube. When we see the vial actions that we both agree many radical Muslims do, my answer would be that he had a demonic encounter if he actually had one. Satan himself transforms into an angel of light 2 Corinthians 11:14. Both religions talk of Jesus and they're both Abrahamic religions in origin, my question then would be which is real and from a loving and true God. The actions over times of true followers of both religions speaks for itself. Ya I would still say your way that you portrayed the experience Muhammad had with the angel Gabriel is illogical because that was stolen from the Bible and since it doesn't portray Jesus as the ultimate way to God then it is obviously just a rip off and an attempt by the devil to use things tied to God to lead people away. Satan is fallen with no possible redemption, hes going to use every way he can to take people from God, even if it means using Jesus and Gabriel in stories to take lead people off the track of God.

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