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About Torn

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  1. @thedudeabides Your link also talks about the possibility of her being 17-18 years old at the age of marriage... I think we've covered all the ground there's to be had in this discussion, but here's a final thought. http://hameem.org/index.php/multimedia/articles/89-articles/149-proof-that-aisha-was-over-15-years-old-when-she-married-the-prophet-peace-be-upon-him In conclusion, although the ‘six-nine’ hadith may be authentic, it is based ultimately on the authority of Aisha. In view of prevailing norms of her time, it is very unlikely that she knew her own age, and other reports and historical evidence indicate that she was, in fact, between fifteen and nineteen years of age when the marriage was consummated. As these other reports relate Aisha’s age to actual historical events that took place, they are likely to be a far more reliable indicator. History shows that the conceptualisation of numbers in medieval times was often primitive. Care must be exercised not to read historical reports with ‘modern’ eyes and a contemporary numerical mindset. Commonly, when pre-modern man states his age, it is often ‘rounded’ up or down, or simply an approximation. Even though expressed as a precise figure, it is not meant to be understood as such. Finally, it should be remembered that the ‘six-nine’ narration is an ahad[37] hadith and therefore not considered to provide absolute certainty according to the Sunni epistemological system.
  2. @olderbytheday With respect, your point is of course valid but I didn't wish to discuss the Ins and outs of Islam in this thread, just that a poster in this thread claimed something regarding the age of Aisha, I've shown historical Islamic writings showing otherwise, backing up what is already known within academia, that there is not unanimous agreement to be had between all scholars regarding Aisha's age. That's all I wished to point out, nothing more, nothing less.
  3. @ dude Well, evidences in the hadiths for other ages of Aisha are there for all to see. Deny the existence historical Islamic writings of the era that go against what you wish to believe if you want, doesn't bother me. I on the other hand, prefer not to cherry pick certain writings and instead take into account all the writings and reach a conclusion that way.
  4. @olderbytheday To be fair though, I wasn't actually claiming that Islam wasn't pro-paedophilia, just stating the fact that there is not unanimous agreement between the scholars regarding the age of aisha at time of consummation. The ages range between 9-19 from the historical writings.
  5. I thought my quotes showed evidence it could have been anywhere up to the age of 19 at the time the marriage was consummated? Does that show the religion as a whole condones pedophilia? Maybe I'm missing something here, hmm?
  6. Mate, please, at no point did I ever call this fact or that fact. I only ever said there was evidence to support the different claims of 9-19, and I have provided the quotes from historical Islamic writings to back up my point. Please tell me what is so wrong about that? I don't excuse the behaviour of radical muslims and never will, their behaviour is abhorrent. If you ever think I've condoned that sort of behaviour then please point it out for me.
  7. @thedudeabides Altered LOL, they are from the Hadiths, the historical documents from many hundreds of years ago and not as you claim, 'liberal new age bullshit'. Unless you mean to suggest the Hadiths have been no credibility at all to begin with in which you can apply the same to your hadiths which give evidence of the 6-9 age. Sad that you would rather resort to name calling to make your argument than civilized discussion and debate as I've offered to you.
  8. @This Sling & Stone I could provide stats that show it isn't every Islamic nation that these abominable terrorist acts against the west originate, only certain ones https://images-cdn.9gag.com/photo/aEYdE6N_700b.jpg . But the stats are irrelevant anyway because that's not the point I'm trying to make at all! I did mention before that I am in no way trying to justify the acts of radicals, not in the slightest, and neither do I want to focus on what the dire practical consequences are of certain interpretations by muslims(for I can acknowledge already it happens and it's barbaric and wrong). I only want to solely focus on your claim which was about the message that Muhammad gave as he allegedly received divine knowledge from the Angel Gabriel. Let's put it another way. Let's say all muslims died off or converted to other religions hundreds of years ago and so the world has been muslim free for the past several hundred years, would you still say that the way I've explained the words of the 'Angel Gabriel' thru Muhammad has been unreasonable, biased or illogical in any way shape or form? Have I unfairly distorted what the message was that Muhammad passed on from his own mouth, according to the Quran? edit: specifically the claim about compulsion of religion
  9. @thedudeabides Heh, your silence speaks volumes.
  10. The effect is still very negative because we are an importer nation not an exporter nation like China and Japan are!
  11. We haven't even fully absorbed the effects yet of the reduction to $1.25
  12. @Ukshep https://www.theguardian.com/business/live/2017/mar/24/markets-await-us-healthcare-vote-and-french-and-german-data-business-live?page=with:block-58d506b1e4b0a411e9ab800c#block-58d506b1e4b0a411e9ab800c Pound could fall as low as $1.06, Deutsche Bank The pound could fall by another 15% against the dollar and the euro this year according to Deutsche Bank. Currency analysts at the German bank said sterling could fall as low as $1.06 - from a current level of $1.2492 - as the Brexit process weighs on growth. Meanwhile it could fall towards parity with the euro. Commenting in a special report on Brexit, they wrote: We do not see sterling (currently) fully pricing a hard Brexit outcome. Combined with limited adjustment in the UK’s current account deficit and slowing growth, we see further downside, and forecast $1.06 in by year-end. ----- That would mean the £ will have lost one third of its value in within the space of 18 months. The EU are determined to deny us a common sense trade deal that would benefit both the people of the UK and the rest of Europe because they want to punish us for choosing sovereignty and have our currency suffer as a result. The economy is in the shitter as it is. Public services closing down, deteriorating levels of pay and long hours, increase in prices, severely underfunded care system for the infirm, taxes going up for the many while the few use legal loopholes to evade tax, a chronically high budget deficit and ever increasing levels of government debt despite the promises by politicians in government that they'd have us back on an even keel by the end of the last parliament. £ parity with $ is simply not sustainable. That would be economic genocide. Let's hope the above by deutsche is just scare tactics.
  13. It's the house of rep. vote. Looks like it's a pass. Did they do the senate vote earlier?
  14. Spot on, Shep. Nor is there any mention in the article mentioning the obvious possibility he could have been radicalized in Saudi Arabia. Can't go criticizing radical countries who we have ties with now can we!
  15. @Guitar Doc But government funded healthcare often pays over the odds for various equipments and medicines and so on, further enriching the mega corporations at the expense of the taxpayer.