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Conspiracy Against The Bible

486 posts in this topic

1. The text itself

The canon of the Bible was not the result of any cherry picking by any official of the church or any organizational body. Rather, the canon was determined by the authoritative use of these books from the time they were written. Later confirmations and formal pronouncements were simply a recognition of testimony by centuries of affirmation.

Compared to other ancient texts, the Bible, especially the New Testament, enjoys unparalleled attestation and manuscript support. The earliest extant copies from the times of the originals is very close compared to other writings of the same era. Here are some quotes from http://www.allabouttruth.org/origin-of-the-bible.htm :

Quote

There are more than 14,000 existing Old Testament manuscripts and fragments copied throughout the Middle East, Mediterranean and European regions that agree dramatically with each other. In addition, these texts agree with the Septuagint version of the Old Testament, which was translated from Hebrew to Greek some time during the 3rd century BC. The Dead Sea Scrolls, discovered in Israel in the 1940's and 50's, also provide phenomenal evidence for the reliability of the ancient transmission of the Jewish Scriptures (Old Testament) before the arrival of Jesus Christ.

The manuscript evidence for the New Testament is also dramatic, with over 5,300 known copies and fragments in the original Greek, nearly 800 of which were copied before 1000 AD. Some manuscript texts date to the early second and third centuries, with the time between the original autographs and our earliest existing copies being a remarkably short 60 years. Interestingly, this manuscript evidence far surpasses the manuscript reliability of other ancient writings that we trust as authentic every day. Look at these comparisons: Julius Caesar's "The Gallic Wars" (10 manuscripts remain, with the earliest one dating to 1,000 years after the original autograph); Pliny the Younger's "History" (7 manuscripts; 750 years elapsed); Thucydides' "History" (8 manuscripts; 1,300 years elapsed); Herodotus' "History" (8 manuscripts; 1,300 years elapsed); Sophocles (193 manuscripts; 1,400 years); Euripides (9 manuscripts; 1,500 years); and Aristotle (49 manuscripts; 1,400 years).

Re. archaeology, more from http://www.allaboutarchaeology.org/biblical-archaeology.htm :

Quote

One of the most dramatic finds is the Sumerian King List, which dates to approximately 2100 BC. This collection of clay tablets and prisms is most exciting because it divides the Sumerian kings into two categories; those who reigned before the "great flood" and those who reigned after it. The lists are also dramatic because they include the ages of the kings before and after the "great flood," which show the same phenomenal life span changes mentioned in the Bible. Actually, records of a global flood are found throughout most ancient cultures...

The Merneptah Stele (also known as the Israel Stele) is an upright stone slab measuring over seven feet tall that contains carved hieroglyphic text dating to approximately 1230 BC. The Egyptian stele describes the military victories of Pharaoh Merneptah and includes the earliest mention of "Israel" outside the Bible. Although the specific battles covered by the stele are not included in the Bible, the stele establishes extra-biblical evidence that the Israelites were already living as a people in ancient Canaan by 1230 BC...

Biblical archaeology covering ancient Israeli kings and culture received a huge lift in 1994 when archaeologists discovered a stone inscription at the ancient city of Dan, which refers to the "House of David." The House of David Inscription (Tel Dan Inscription) is important because it's the first ancient reference to King David outside the Bible.

Now to claims of plagiarism and conspiracy by TPTB to create the Bible as their own script to follow. Understand that this is not about translation but about original language manuscripts. 

First of all, the Bible predates the groups usually cited as having written it. Second, the kinds of people who would try to create such a colossal lie are not the kind who would write things that condemn themselves:

Quote

The Bible must be the invention either of good men or angels, bad men or devils, or of God. However, it was not written by good men, because good men would not tell lies by saying ‘Thus saith the Lord’; it was not written by bad men because they would not write about doing good duty, while condemning sin, and themselves to hell; thus, it must be written by divine inspiration.

Charles Wesley, McDowell, Evidence That Demands a Verdict , 1990:178.

Third, theories such as that the Romans wrote the NT defy all that is known about Rome in the first century (or any other century). For example, it is alleged by some that the Piso family or Josephus wrote the NT, but see http://www.tektonics.org/lp/pisocake.php for why this is patently false. The Roman government only cared that everyone accepted the whole pantheon, and anyone who didn't, regardless of believing in a god, was considered an atheist. They cared nothing for subverting Judaism or Christianity, but only containing or destroying it by force.

As for plagiarism, be aware that oral teachings predate written teachings, such that when a teaching first appeared in writing is not proof of it being the first or original oral teaching. And when we see similar teachings in many ancient cultures (e.g. the great flood), this should lead us to conclude that they all had a common ancestor, an original source, which was then altered and corrupted as populations divided and expanded.

As for alleged influence on the Bible from pagan sources, see http://www.bible.ca/trinity/trinity-pagan-christianity.htm and http://beyondthephysical.blogspot.com/search/label/Zeitgeist Misconceptions . There is a LOT of material at those two links, so I'll just past a quote from the second one: "Your web site contains one of the best and most understandable Zeitgeist responses out there! And I've read most. There is not a single claim made by Zeitgeist you do not completely eviscerate. And Christian I'm not." Jos., Dallas, TX.


2. Content of the Old Testament

Perhaps the most common criticism of the OT is the bloodshed by an allegedly monstrous God of wrath. But there is a good resource at http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/killergod.html to explain that context is everything, and Bible critics rarely consider context. Other articles include one on the alleged human sacrifice of Jephthah's daughter (https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/1081-what-about-jephthahs-vow) and a strange test for suspected adultery (http://hermeneutics.stackexchange.com/questions/2034/why-was-the-priestly-exam-of-a-woman-suspected-of-adultery-not-applied-to-men-n). Consider also a rebuttal to the Skeptic's Anotated Bible at http://www.berenddeboer.net/sab/ (both OT and NT).

3. The New Testament

Fewer critics have issues with the NT in general and Jesus in particular. For any who doubt basics such as Jesus rising from the dead (e.g., the Gospels), I recommend the full-length video http://www.jesusoftestimony.com/watch/ , and a document by a "father" of the Harvard School of Law, Simon Greenleaf, who was challenged by Christian students to apply his legal methods to the Gospels (Greenleaf was not a Christian at the time): http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/jesus/greenleaf.html .

For critics of the apostle Paul, see link removed . 

For extensive writings on my own personal understanding of the teachings of the NT, see link removed .

4. Summary

It seems to me that Bible critics generally follow the same blind acceptance of "the writings of men" that Bible supporters are allegedly following. Whether one accepts the divine inspiration of the Bible or not, the problem of poor reading comprehension and ignorance of context remains and must be faced.

But charges that the Bible is the result of some nefarious plan to enslave humanity is so completely backwards from its actual content that I marvel at how many believe this. The Bible, from Genesis to Revelation, is the story of redemption from enslavement; it is the account of the ruin of God's orininal creation, its path to redemption through the death and resurrection of Jesus, and its promise of restoration to Eden once again. It's the story of ultimate justice and yet also mercy. One Hebrew scholar, Dr. Michael Heiser, calls the idea that Lucifer was the hero and YHWH the villain "watcher theology", since the "watchers" were the fallen angels. This is the root of Gnosticism. It is they who wish to turn the Bible upside down, and who churn out lie after lie about God, the Bible, the Jews, and the Christians. That is the conspiracy against the Bible.

Many mistakenly presume that if they leave one belief and turn to another, they have stepped "up" and become "enlightened". But in fact, in many cases this is simply a case of jumping out of the frying pan and into the fire. A change of belief is not proof of anything. And if the Bible is to be rejected in spite of intense scrutiny and criticism for hundreds of years, while scraps of writings that contradict it are blindly accepted without any testing at all, then I can only conclude that such people are not so much interested in truth as in dethroning the one religious writing that frightens them.

I'm under no delusion that this little thread of mine is going to change anyone's mind. I offer it as a public statement that there really are answers to those who truly seek them. All I ask is that you read the material at the links; I'm not forcing anyone to do anything, but simply presenting why I believe as I do.

Edited by Cinnamon
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Very well written article, easy to read easy to follow. 

I can tell there is some Devine in your intervention. 

May God Bless your ministry 

 

Man, who is man. Man is boastful, full of pride. Man seeks to learn about man but rarely seeks to learn of God, who knows mans ways, after all He created man. 

 

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Just to back that all up Herod sent his astrologers to find where this Bethlehem star was.  They were not able to find it, but where this competition for his kingdom was practically next door.

But then the TPTB tried to read ahead (if they even had a copy at the time), to find a way to make sure that He would not be able to return.  They think they've got it all figured out.  Since they are so illegal and dishonest and they have no moral standings, it wouldn't be that difficult for Him to turn over everything they've done.  They don't know Him very well now do they?

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This is the root of Gnosticism. It is they who wish to turn the Bible upside down, and who churn out lie after lie about God, the Bible, the Jews, and the Christians. That is the conspiracy against the Bible.

Nice of you to put (Bible upside down), lie about God, the Bible, Christians, and Jews all together. I am sure some of these people exist, however you don't lump all of the above when talking about one particular type of people. I have only stated that the wording was changed and maybe some things inserted into it. The same as some things have been omitted (I have never seen a bible that had the book of Enoc in it.), as well as many other readings that were left out. At least if anything, they could have all been included as "supplemental reading" behind the old/new testament the least, or at least some of them. Never the less, we don't have to have the book of Enoc to see that there were giants among st those days as Genesis speaks of them. Strangely many of the remains of them have been hidden from most of the world as they would contradict their beliefs/science.

Also how do you explain this? http://www.conspiracyoutpost.com/topic/4726-the-david-duke-show-interview-with-a-new-testament-scholar-on-the-christian-scripture-concerning-jews/

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Nice of you to put (Bible upside down), lie about God, the Bible, Christians, and Jews all together. I am sure some of these people exist, however you don't lump all of the above when talking about one particular type of people. I have only stated that the wording was changed and maybe some things inserted into it. The same as some things have been omitted (I have never seen a bible that had the book of Enoc in it.), as well as many other readings that were left out. At least if anything, they could have all been included as "supplemental reading" behind the old/new testament the least, or at least some of them. Never the less, we don't have to have the book of Enoc to see that there were giants among st those days as Genesis speaks of them. Strangely many of the remains of them have been hidden from most of the world as they would contradict their beliefs/science.

Also how do you explain this? http://www.conspiracyoutpost.com/topic/4726-the-david-duke-show-interview-with-a-new-testament-scholar-on-the-christian-scripture-concerning-jews/

There is no mention of phanuel in the Bible, and it's blasphemy to say that there is any other mediator besides Christ. The book of Enoch contains heresy therefore it was not inspired by the Holy Spirit.
 
 

iGabriel: and the fourth, who is set over the repentance unto hope of those who inherit eternal life, is named Phanuel.’ 
 

“For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;”
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭2:5‬ ‭KJV‬‬
http://bible.us/1/1ti.2.5.kjv
 
And you mean David Duke the formal imperial wizard for the KKK, why would anyone listen to anything that man has to say. Burn crosses and speak hate while claiming to be christian.   
 
If you are not affiliated 'as you claim' with the KKK, or the neo-nazi skinhead movement, your most certainly  a promoter or spokesman. 
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Very well written article, easy to read easy to follow. 

I can tell there is some Devine in your intervention. 

May God Bless your ministry 

 

Man, who is man. Man is boastful, full of pride. Man seeks to learn about man but rarely seeks to learn of God, who knows mans ways, after all He created man. 

 

Thanks man. God bless you as well. (I'm out of green but will give when I can.)

I have a busy day starting within the hour, so I won't be able to monitor the thread very well till maybe tomorrow afternoon. I hope to check in now and then but can guarantee I won't from a couple hours from now till the rest of the evening.

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Just to back that all up Herod sent his astrologers to find where this Bethlehem star was.  They were not able to find it, but where this competition for his kingdom was practically next door.

But then the TPTB tried to read ahead (if they even had a copy at the time), to find a way to make sure that He would not be able to return.  They think they've got it all figured out.  Since they are so illegal and dishonest and they have no moral standings, it wouldn't be that difficult for Him to turn over everything they've done.  They don't know Him very well now do they?

That's right. They think they can outsmart God, but we'll see how that works out for them.

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Nice of you to put (Bible upside down), lie about God, the Bible, Christians, and Jews all together. I am sure some of these people exist, however you don't lump all of the above when talking about one particular type of people. I have only stated that the wording was changed and maybe some things inserted into it. The same as some things have been omitted (I have never seen a bible that had the book of Enoc in it.), as well as many other readings that were left out. At least if anything, they could have all been included as "supplemental reading" behind the old/new testament the least, or at least some of them. Never the less, we don't have to have the book of Enoc to see that there were giants among st those days as Genesis speaks of them. Strangely many of the remains of them have been hidden from most of the world as they would contradict their beliefs/science.

Also how do you explain this? http://www.conspiracyoutpost.com/topic/4726-the-david-duke-show-interview-with-a-new-testament-scholar-on-the-christian-scripture-concerning-jews/

You seem unable to distinguish between broad-brushing ONE group of people, and talking about SEVERAL groups of people with various objects of hatred.

As for wording being changed, you have no idea. You have to look at original language documents, not translations. And anyone at all familiar with textual criticism and document studies will tell you that many copies with small variants lends credibility to them, since identical copies suggest collusion. So unless you can SPECIFY instances of "word changes", you're only making baseless accusations. You really should check out some of the links I provided before commenting on specific points.

And WH has graciously already addressed your wish for the book of Enoch (you should at least learn to spell it) in the Bible. How would you know what should or should not be in the Bible anyway? Who are you to decide? Can't Christians and Jews decide what their own sacred writings should contain?

As for your link, I've already stated that I will not be dragged back into the Jew-hate threads, and once again WH has addressed your reference to the likes of David Duke.

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You seem unable to distinguish between broad-brushing ONE group of people, and talking about SEVERAL groups of people with various objects of hatred.

I am not the one who listed ". It is they who wish to turn the Bible upside down, and who churn out lie after lie about God, the Bible, the Jews, and the Christians." listing it as one type of person a gnostic (I am not a nos tic)

As for wording being changed, you have no idea. You have to look at original language documents, not translations. And anyone at all familiar with textual criticism and document studies will tell you that many copies with small variants lends credibility to them, since identical copies suggest collusion. So unless you can SPECIFY instances of "word changes", you're only making baseless accusations. You really should check out some of the links I provided before commenting on specific points. How would you know what I think? How do you know that I did not look at etc? The Bible: Truth, Alterations & Discernment http://home.earthlink.net/~lionlamb/BibleDiscern.html https://archive.org/details/Bible- PureCambridgeEditionOf1611preWestcottAndHortAlterations http://workmenforchrist.org/Bible/Versions/NKJV.html 

wtv on this, I found it before but its becoming a time consuming task to find it again so ....

And WH has graciously already addressed your wish for the book of Enoch (you should at least learn to spell it) in the Bible. How would you know what should or should not be in the Bible anyway? Who are you to decide? Can't Christians and Jews decide what their own sacred writings should contain? I said it should at least be "supplemental reading" as it has lots of good info on it. Also I wasn't concerned about the spelling at the time I wrote it. 

As for your link, I've already stated that I will not be dragged back into the Jew-hate threads, and once again WH has addressed your reference to the likes of David Duke.

I find it quite strange that you proclaim to be etc but won't take a closer look because it might allow you to understand more. Also on the link I will post some more when I return. Going to eat. If that preacher isn't good enough for you, I will list another along with more info for you to maybe consider since you don't like Duke. I will address wh post also when I return.

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If you are not affiliated 'as you claim' with the KKK, or the neo-nazi skinhead movement, your most certainly  a promoter or spokesman. 

see last post..

to save time learn the history of kkk... Also to be quick, it was the north who sent "infidels" to demonize the kkk as they seen it had a growing influence. It was not the clan who was doing bad things, but the agent provacators or "illuminati" to slow the movement/cast it in a bad light. Well even if you don't know this, here you go. KKK rebrand: Blacks, Hispanics, gays & Jews now welcomed by Ku Klux Klan 

A new branch of the group, traditionally known for its extreme-right views, will now be offering a wider membership, recruiting followers without discriminating against their religion, race or sexual orientation. https://www.rt.com/usa/204863-kkk-welcomes-black-gays. So your demonizing failed at both former and later... 

I post to raise awareness of things. I guess every single post about anything I have ever done means I promote everything now? That must mean that in my lifetime I have promoted over a million + things. See when you share files, regardless if you download them at the same time, you are broadcasting them. Since this is the case by your analogy(you promote), then I must promote over one million things already. Your case has been defeated.

 

 

 

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see last post..

to save time learn the history of kkk... Also to be quick, it was the north who sent "infidels" to demonize the kkk as they seen it had a growing influence. It was not the clan who was doing bad things, but the agent provacators or "illuminati" to slow the movement/cast it in a bad light. Well even if you don't know this, here you go. KKK rebrand: Blacks, Hispanics, gays & Jews now welcomed by Ku Klux Klan 

A new branch of the group, traditionally known for its extreme-right views, will now be offering a wider membership, recruiting followers without discriminating against their religion, race or sexual orientation. https://www.rt.com/usa/204863-kkk-welcomes-black-gays. So your demonizing failed at both former and later... 

I post to raise awareness of things. I guess every single post about anything I have ever done means I promote everything now? That must mean that in my lifetime I have promoted over a million + things. See when you share files, regardless if you download them at the same time, you are broadcasting them. Since this is the case by your analogy(you promote), then I must promote over one million things already. Your case has been defeated.

 

 

 

there is no case, you came here claiming to be just a messenger " don't shoot the messenger you said". I see your messages, you and your fellow messengers, your transparent, I can see. You have been compromised and probably don't even know it. 

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there is no case, you came here claiming to be just a messenger " don't shoot the messenger you said". I see your messages, you and your fellow messengers, your transparent, I can see. You have been compromised and probably don't even know it. 

I have no idea what you are on about. I know no one here from anywhere else. Also you have been compromised and probably done even know it? What is this about?

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